The Digital Utopia Podcast Episode #17

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About the podcast

The Digital Utopia Podcast is for SMB Marketers and Business Leaders looking to align their Marketing, Sales, and Service departments so they’re part of one powerhouse growth team.

Each episode will dive into the strategies, philosophies, and tools that will change your approach to organizational growth, give you renewed focus and clarity, and allow you to build a brand that not only helps you stand out—but win.

The Digital Utopia Podcast is produced by Digitopia and hosted by Frank Cowell and Joseph Freeman.

Episode transcription

Frank
greatness comes from imbalance in. So if we want to be great at maximizing revenue potential for an organization creating a culture of revenue, which is what rev up is all about, we need to disproportionately deploy energy towards the bottlenecks.

Intro
You are listening to the digital utopia podcast, a resource dedicated to helping b2b leadership and executives gain clarity and focus in a chaotic marketplace.

Frank
Hey, gang, welcome to the digital utopia podcast episode 17. I'm your host, Frank Cowell. And I'm joined by my co host,

Joe
Joseph Freeman,

Frank
we are going to talk about something really fun today. From what I understand Ariane gave us some amazing notes and set us up with some amazing background information. And I see in front of me something called an implementation matrix that we've been working on.

Joe
I love that.

Frank
And we're gonna, like, tease this today. And we're gonna get into a little bit of it. But this implementation matrix is something that we might make available publicly. This thing's too good. Honestly, though, I don't know if we're gonna release this out into the wild like just willy nilly. This is too good to get. Joey, How are you this morning?

Joe
I'm doing great. I'm doing fantastic. I was saying earlier, I would put on a little jack Johnson this morning. Nice just always gets me in the right. beachy mood?

Frank
I don't know. I probably know one of his songs, right?

Joe
Oh, give me a break.

Frank
No, I'm serious. I'm not

Joe
you know, Asan.

Frank
Maybe?

Joe
Well, there's a lot of good songs. We'll talk about that later. Alright, so we are going to be talking about this matrix here. So we've been working hard, you know, putting together an actual matrix to help people understand how to work through the tactics of top down optimization, which is one of our core philosophies.

Frank
Yeah, ultimately, right to like, if we've been talking about rev Ops, which is a high high level directives and philosophies and principles, then, you know, this digital utopia methodology we're talking about is really a playbook for how you implement that. And this implementation matrix becomes, you know, this, like, fault isolation documents. So that way, you know, as you look to certain metrics, if certain metrics are off, then you have some suggested things to look into. And some things that you need to be able to check off and say, we're doing this well, we're doing this well. Oh, no, we're not doing this. Well. And that clues you in as to the kinds of things you should be focusing on?

Joe
Yeah, exactly. So at the very highest level, this takes if you remember, we have different lifecycle stages, right? We've got people going from visitors to leads from leads to qualified qualifies to opportunities, opportunities to customers and customers to fans. But how do we get them there? And not only how do we get them there, but at each of those levels? What are the KPIs? What are the metrics we're looking at? To understand whether or not we're being effective? Right, there's levels and that's really, you know, as an aside to we've been talking about this lately, and I think it's, it's a good, just little sidebar to have, you know, KPI versus metric. Right.

Frank
So I think, you know, for I think a lot of the business world, mixes them up and doesn't fully understand them, I myself had some really good education around those this year, in particular, you know, where the KPI, the key performance indicator, those are really the the bankable outcome numbers for a given area in so you know, ideally, for a given area, you really only have, you know, one, you for sure have one primary, and you may not have any more, you might have like a secondary one or two, but you have to choose a primary, because that then determines the behavior of the area. So for I'll give you an example, if, if, for example, an operations, the KPI was gross profit dollars, then you're going to do everything to maximize gross profit dollars, right? Whereas if I said it's retention, then you're going to do everything to keep clients regardless if they're exactly profitable or not. Right. So that changes the behavior. So you have to choose one that is the primary and then if you have any other qualifiers to it, right? So your secondary KPIs become qualifiers. So you might say, gross profit dollars is what you're after. Gross Profit percentage is a qualifier, right? That's a supporting KPI. Then metrics are the things that feed and become the drivers to those KPIs. So what are the things you track so like, if you look at sales, for example, sales might have a KPI of monthly recurring revenue dollars added every month, that might be the number one KPI to add as many monthly recurring revenue dollars added per month metric, which is an indicator to let you know how likely are you to hit that might be something like outbound sales calls made on average per day. Right? You can't take sales calls to the bank, but it's an indicator let you know like are the right things happening and are the right sub outcomes happening to to give you the chance to hit your KPI so I just wanted to as an aside to really draw that distinction because I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between KPIs and metrics and whatnot KPIs, you should per area, you should have one primary and decide what is the number one bankable KPI. And then you shouldn't have too many more. But if you do, they should be. They should be qualifiers to that. And you should only have like, one or two more. And then everything else are the metrics you measure to, like, clue you in as to whether or not you're going to hit that by the time the month ends or the quarter ends.

Joe
Yeah, no, that's good. That's good info. So on this matrix, that is one of the boxes that we have on here, right, the KPI for the lifecycle stage that we're talking about. But let me just kind of lay out what we have here. And by the way, today, we're gonna be talking about fans specifically, and how to create fans how to create fans and I think as we go through future episodes, we will break down this same sort of, you know, the different things on this matrix for each of the different life cycles in a different episode or different episodes. Today's fans,

Frank
by the way, I don't know if we were going to have this by the time this airs if we're going to have you know this on a landing page somewhere, whatever. And I mentioned I don't know if we're actually going to let this out into the wild. But look, if you're one of our listeners, shoot me an email frank@digitopia.agency. I will get you a copy of this. Yeah, Frank adage. I don't know if I'm gonna make this if we're gonna make this available publicly like just everyone come one come all download it. But if you want a copy of this, shoot me an email let's just make it simple. No landing pages no funnels, frank@digitopia.agency.

Joe
Yeah, so on this matrix, we've got the different lifecycle stages broken out. And for each lifecycle stage we have, who's accountable, right, so we outline who's accountable for this particular the ownership of making sure that this lifecycle stages Yep, is nurtured the KPIs which you were just talking about, we've got the different metrics, and we've got a list of processes that you need to have dialed in, that will ensure that this person is served well at this level. And if it's one of the lower levels, that they are being served in such a way that will push them to the next level.

Frank
And we should just be clear, like, the the activities are to create that level. So if you look at this matrix, if it says fans, this is not what you're doing for fans is what you're doing to create fans, if you go all the way to the other end, it says visitors, this is what you're doing to create visitors to achieve the goal of that. So just a point of distinction. Sometimes when people look at like these relationship levels, the question is my doing this once they're at that level? Or am I doing this to get them that level in the lenses to get them to that level? That's a great distinction it is because it's often can be very confusing, even for my own team, when we look at some of these kinds of documents. You know, are you doing this once throughout that level? Are you doing this to get them to that level? Right? Right.

Joe
So all of these things are what is going to make them a fan that we're going to correct talking about today. We also have broken out here a platform. So if you remember, we talked about the three P's process platform and people and those are kind of the pillars of rev Ops, right? Correct. So we have on here broken out the process, the things you should be doing to create fans, the platform. So that's the technology really, that you'll need to facilitate the things you're doing to create fans.

Frank
Yeah, it's mainly just to identify like, what's the core platform at that relationship level? And what are the lifecycle, you know, fields and data, this is important, because if you are going to have someone do integration work, they just need to know some basics, like, okay, what's the primary system for this? And what's the life cycle called in that system for this relationship level. So that way, you can get all your systems together and get them map? Right? That's, that's the most critical part.

Joe
And then the third thing is people. So what we outline on the people section is going to be literally the people who are responsible for helping out with this, but also some of the different things that they need to do to equip themselves to help out with this. So certifications they might need. Yeah, any recommended reading that would really help out, you know, specifically with the activities that go on here. So it's really kind of a full service document here, you can hand it to your team and say, run with this make this happen.

Frank
Yeah, and that's important to note, this doc is really for whoever that Rev ops director is the rev ops champion,

Joe
right?

Frank
So that way they can keep track of, okay, where's our bottleneck right now, because remember that the job of the rev ops champion is teach everyone the process, get the systems in play. But once all that's in play, then their job is to analyze on a regular basis, see where they're the gaps and opportunities go to the bottleneck, and attack the bottleneck? Or and then this helps determine where that bottleneck is. And then, you know, do you are you doing all those things? Well, and and to revisit the things that you think you're doing well, right.

Joe
Yeah, and in a lot of cases, and I think this is maybe a little bit of philosophical sort of approach, which I don't actually know if we even agree on it. Let's find out.

Frank
Let's get it out.

Joe
You know, in a lot of ways, I usually recommend get the most important thing done in each of these different lifecycle stages. First, just get one of each so that you actually have a way to facilitate the movement, and it may not be done in the best way. You may have to come back and rebuild what you did, but at least have something there have something for creating visitors and have something for creating leads and for qualified and then once you've got one of each, go back and start making them better and start adding to them. Right. So rather than just focusing on building out an entire life cycles, you know, the process for an entire lifecycle all at once, before moving on, I like to get a little bit of all of it and then coming back and starting to optimize, just so you got a fully working, you know, I'll be at V one machine.

Frank
So I'm in agreement with that, as long as that first phase doesn't take a long time, like that needs to be quick, in my opinion, because I firmly believe you need to get to a place of just kind of running it for a little bit, and then seeing where that data lies. And then you need to like, disproportionately deploy effort towards the bottleneck. And this is one thing that as I've gone through my entrepreneurial journey that I've really started to learn about, and become passionate about, which is, you know, I think oftentimes, as businesses and even in our personal lives, we just tend to like to, you know, spread our energy, energy across many, many things. And so it's kind of hard to become great in a given area, because we're trying to, like give equal attention to all these things. But greatness comes from imbalance. And so if we want to be great at maximizing revenue potential for an organization, creating a culture of revenue, which is what Reb ops is all about, we need to disproportionately deploy energy towards the bottlenecks.

Joe
Yeah, I think it's good.

Frank
And so I'm becoming really passionate about that. And it's, if you look at any, you know, anybody who's, like performed at the highest levels in their craft, you know, take Ariane, and I were just talking about this take Michael Jordan, right here, there's a great documentary out called The Last Dance, it's about the bulls last championship run with Michael Jordan. And, you know, what's really interesting about people like Michael Jordan, and my hero, Kobe Bryant, is that they don't have balance, you know, like this idea of work life balance, that's not in their vocabulary. Right. And I'm not suggest, by the way, if you're listening, I'm not suggesting you have to do that. I'm saying, you know, greatness to like the extremes of performance, come from an imbalance of activity, you are disproportionately deployed against a particular effort to create that greatness. And you look at guys like that, and there was no work life balance, right, they just they were, they went fully into something, and they became, you know, the greatest at their craft. And so, you know, applying that kind of thinking to this, if we continue to try to spread everyone out across all these relationship levels constantly, we won't necessarily like hit it out of the park, it is going to take a really long time. And unfortunately, you know, most executive teams don't have a long time. There's not a lot of patience, you know, are my entrepreneurs and CEO friends that are listening, you know who you are, you don't, we don't have a lot of patience often. So we have to, again, disproportionately deploy the effort toward the bottleneck. If you take anything from this today, it's that attack your bottlenecks, and get on 90 day cycles, by the way to do that.

Joe
Yeah, so that's the setup. So now let's dive into fans, specifically fans. So let's just work down this matrix and talk about what each of these things are and what you should be how to create fans.

Frank
And we should also note that in our implementation matrix, here, we've got a list of suggested things that most of them can be done digitally, most of these are good, because they can be part of this digital utopia experience that, you know, we're suggesting people create. There are many, many other ideas, too. So the idea is, once you check all these off, like go for advanced ideas, right? Like, you might do a retreat, you might do a retreat just for your existing clients to create fans that's not on this list. So we're not saying like, this is the only things you could do, but, but these are the things that minimum, you should think about doing?

Joe
Absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about fans, and we're starting at the top like, has to do top down optimization, we really believe that when you start optimizing from the top, you're going to get some of the biggest, and maybe easiest wins. So while everybody is, you know, fighting to get new leads in the door, that will take a long time potentially to mature into a sale, we're gonna go for people who are already close to being a fan and just make them a fan.

Frank
Yeah, and these things are listed in the order, like you said, top down, but they're in the order that you would likely do them in, you might argue this first two sets, you could flip them, but they're, they're the likely order you should do them in Because ultimately, when we, you'll see when we get down towards the bottom or we're trying to get referrals from people, like you're, you're most likely to get referrals when you've done these other things really well. Right. Okay.

Joe
So on the matrix, the goal is to create a fan accountability, and that's one of the blocks here. Yeah, talk about who needs to be accountable here.

Frank
Yeah. So this is interesting. There's a primary and a secondary. Okay, so your primary accountability for creating fans is the head of service, your head of Ops, your head of client success, whoever heads up that client satisfaction, that's the primary accountability, but they have a partnership. Secondary accountability is the head of marketing, why marketing, this is at the end of the line, right? This is, you know, long after marketing's touch them is because when marketing is heavily involved with client success, not only are they going to do better marketing, but if you'll notice the activities in here are best executed by the marketing team, because the a lot of these activities, not all of them, a lot of these activities, leverage the skills and the talents of marketing people. And so you'll notice if you go across this whole matrix, we essentially are going to create a closed loop, where marketing is integrating with sales on one end of the spectrum. But on the other end of the spectrum, marketing is integrating with service. And then they each integrate with each other

Joe
circle of life. So primary head of service, secondary had marketing, yes, let's move on to KPIs. So what is the major KPI we're looking for here?

Frank
So these are suggestions starter in your organization, it might be a little different. What we're recommending here is the ultimate KPIs retention, retention, or in your business, if you're not in a recurring model, it might be repeat sales. Right? It might be average number of buys, which is a repeat sale number. So whatever it is, in your organization, for us, we're a recurring services organization at the company we work at. That's retention is, you know, ultimate there.

Joe
So the sentiment is they keep coming back for more correct? Yeah,

Frank
right. Right, and your bit what, but you may you might have a business where there is no such thing as a repeat, buy, you have like a one and done transaction. And the likelihood that they're going to buy again, is like, you know, maybe it's a once in a lifetime, or once in a 10 year thing. Like let's say you're a realtor, that the second buy, like, you're really not holding out for that, because it's years and years and years away. So your number one fan creation metric might be referrals, right, like whatever the number what whatever the most bankable thing is, that will, in effect, create an economic engine for you. Right. So if you're a realtor referrals might be the best economic engine with your existing clients. Right. Now, you could repeat buy from your realtor, you could, but the transactions are so far apart. Maybe it's referrals, that's the most bankable thing. And so that's what I want you to think about when it comes to KPIs is what's the biggest currency for that particular area, or that particular topic or that particular section you're dealing with? What's the currency? So like, we talked about this yesterday, in one of my quarterly reviews, I was talking with our head of culture. And so the question is, what's the most bankable currency for your role? Because it's not about like, revenue in that role, right? You know, it's around, you know, employee success. And we measure that on quarterly basis. So that's the most bankable currency for that role. So here are the most bankable currency we have an example is retention. But again, in your business, maybe you're not a recurring service. And maybe it's number of repeat buys. Or if there's just no opportunity to repeat, buy in with what you sell, maybe it's referrals. So you got to get the most bankable thing here that you're measuring.

Joe
Yep. So that's your KPI. And then we got some supporting metrics, right?

Frank
Yeah. So this, there's only one KPI here, you might have, again, you might have some secondary KPIs that, you know, provide color to that in here, we just got the one the metrics here, you might have like, customers out score NPS. Yep. Right. That's a good indicator of retention, potentially, right? You might have referrals, like referrals, you might measure those, because that might be a good indicator of retention. How many reviews your customers or clients are giving you? That might be a good indicator of retention, because unhappy clients don't give you referrals and reviews?

Joe
Right. Yeah, I think those are the easiest ones to operationalize. But there's a lot of other things you can get creative here, right? Yeah, you could track how many of your customers are willing to do a video case study for you. Right? Yeah, you could track how many of them are willing to, you know, promote you in their newsletter, or give you a guest blog post. I mean, there's all kinds of things that, that allow you to understand whether or not they really like you.

Frank
Yeah, right. Exactly. In their indicators, right. So like if, you know, let's say you're in a recurring services business, and you have a model where clients can choose to renew their contract or go month to month. So you might have, you could have an indicator on here, how many clients chose the month to month option versus the annual renewal? Like that could be a huge indicator for your business because you're like, Whoa, why are they not willing to commit to another year? You know, so you're right, there's a lot of things so this is really up to your you have to examine your business. We have some examples here like retention and net promoter score and referrals and reviews. But for your business, you really have to look into what is your economic driver or what is the the biggest currency if you will, for that particular level,

Joe
right. Okay, so KPIs metrics, we've got those dialed in and now we move on to the three P's process platform and people so this process is really Where the crux of all this conversation has to happen. We've got quite a few suggestions in here and we broke them out into eight kind of little subcategories of the different types of processes you need to put in place,

Frank
we should know this one is formatted a bit differently than all the other columns, because this is the one where it's, it's less about automation, it's less about, you know, some of the things that it's, it's less, I don't wanna say process driven, because it's a process, but it's less like put it in the machine and something comes out. Whereas like the rest of your process is, is very much like that. Because this is all about, like really digging in and being as one to one as possible. Right, right.

Joe
So these eight categories, and we'll talk about the specifics within each one, but it's to provide additional value. Yeah, right, to anticipate their needs to stay top of mind, to provide world class support, to delight them, ask for additional commitments, we want to entice referrals, and ultimately optimize performance. So that's how we've broken them down in this column. Yeah.

Frank
So the way each of these are is like you have the what you're going to do to drive the engagement or the kinds of the things you're going to do to physically do. So content, you're going to create things you're going to physically do and then how do you optimize that once things are in play? Again, in this category, it's it's less about that structure, we hit we have the subcategories that you just mentioned.

Joe
Also, I think this is the column, the fans column is the one that probably has the most room to evolve. Because as you dial this stuff in and as your business evolves, and as the world changes, I mean, you're going to have to continue to find new and creative ways to keep your customers engaged. And, you know, if your average lifespan of a client is two years, you got to get creative and figure out how to keep them for right. And so you're going to have to keep and when it gets to four, you got to figure out how to keep the six. So you're going to have to keep innovating here.

Frank
Absolutely. And I think that's why this column out of it compared All the rest is is different. Because this, this isn't a lesson about a one size fits all. Whereas all the other things that are part of a marketing and sales process, that's pretty formulaic, you work your system, have the right content have the right positioning, right, once they're once they become a customer or client to turn into a fan like theirs. Again, it largely depends on your business model and in lots of other things.

Joe
Right? Right. So providing additional value. That's the first category, let's talk about what you can do to provide additional value.

Frank
These are again, these are like some recommended things that you could do. And once you accomplish these things, you can do a whole lot more. But you know, what about webinars? You know, what if you did webinars just for your existing clients, where, you know, they had access to some next level of learning that you otherwise wouldn't get, or maybe wouldn't have context if they're not yet a client. And so doing, providing continuing to provide additional value to them just like you do to the prospects in your marketplace by doing webinars all the time, right? office hours, for example, is the next one.

Joe
I'm gonna go back to webinars. Yeah, cuz I think webinars, you know, a lot of people do webinars, and quite honestly, a lot of them suck.

Frank
But some of them are really good. And some of your why they suck is because most people think of webinars their opportunity to like, present how great they are, as opposed to stepping into Professor mode in teaching

Joe
people something where I think we've seen, some of the best success is when companies partner with other companies to do joint webinars, to bring their customer additional value outside of what, you know, company X can actually do on their own, they bring in company wide to help, you know, educate them help provide additional,

Frank
that's a great point. And a great reminder, Arianne is always talking about this, you know, like, it doesn't always have to be information from you and your brand. To your point, like, what if you brought in a CPA firm to teach and educate about something because it's related to what you do? Right. You know, that's, that's another great lens, on what you could be doing to provide that additional value,

Joe
you know, to tie this back end, back to the blueprint that we've talked about in earlier episodes. So we have a blueprint, right that you can go download, and it helps you mobilize some of this stuff through content. And I just want to remind everybody that in the fan section, the whole goal is to elevate them. Right, exactly. So each of the different life cycles has a very specific goal. And in fans, it's elevate. So I just want anybody looking at the blueprint in conjunction with this. That's how you're going to connect the dots here.

Frank
Yeah, in fact, we should update this implementation matrix to include that key word because each of these levels has a key word, right? There's, you know, educate and empower and so on and so forth. So we're going to make that edit. That's a great reminder there, that Yeah, we're trying to, we've already got them as a customer. Hopefully, we've transformed them by what they bought from us. Now we need to elevate them into, you know, becoming more effective than they ever thought they could be in their role in their job in their lives.

Joe
Yep. So going back to providing additional value webinars. Good. Yep. talked about that. I think you've started to go into office hours.

Frank
Yeah, office hours is this is a simple way you can provide value to your, your clients, customers, patients, members, students, whatever, whatever you call them. And that's just simply like showing up on a on a regular schedule. Do like a Facebook Live kind of thing. And allow people to come in, allow your clients to come in and, and just pick your brain, ask questions, and it's there for everyone else to hear. And so office hours are super easy. You know, if you feel like, man, we're so swamped, we don't have time to do all this extra stuff. One, I would challenge you on that, like, you, you need to make time to turn people into fans. Because if you don't, somebody else will, somebody else is going to woo for their attention. Right? Right. Again, we talked about relationships all the time, if this was a marriage, and you're just like, all you did was like, put the paycheck in the bank account. And you know, you at least were home by eight o'clock. And that was your that's all you did, like, well, you're not really doing your part, right? Like, you have to do these other things to like, create that true partnership. Same thing with your your customers, if you just simply provide the service, because that's what they paid you to do, then you're not elevating them to another level to then

Joe
cement that relationship. By the way, make sure you tune into Frank's alternate podcast tips on marriage, you're gonna learn so much, and

Frank
my wife would probably not vote me as like the podcast host of that show.

Joe
Yikes. Okay, so moving on from office hours, we have listed here Academy University. Let's talk about that. Because that sounds like a big one Academy. Yeah,

Frank
this can be a big one. So again, you don't have to, like do all these before you move on to the next thing. But these are suggestions. So if you have knowledge that your your existing base could benefit from, that is in the form of PDFs, and videos and whatnot, why not put those into an online learning platform so that way, your customer base can have this place to go to regularly learn. And what if you structure that in such a way to where you know, they can progress their knowledge and like and measure it and check it off and take a quiz and pass pass the course if you will. And so doing things like that, you know, it's a great way to create a fan because again, you're doing more than just providing your service you're helping elevate them to a place that they didn't know they could get to or or they didn't think was expected by doing business with you. Now HubSpot does this really well, right? Like you buy software, but they actually have University slash Academy. And you can log into an and they don't charge extra for it. And you can like improve your job skills. By just buying you you bought the software they did their part, they're doing these this other thing to turn you into a fan to make you effective, more effective than you thought you can be.

Joe
Well and use HubSpot as an example in so many other companies do this too. But once you've got that platform in place, and you are using it to delight your your current customers, turning them into fans, you can actually also double dip and use it to attract on the other end new visitors. Right? Exactly. It's actually a kind of pays dividends. Once you have that in place.

Frank
This is a potentially a big one that businesses who are in the business of doing University Academy academies like that's their business, businesses who are in the business of doing other things, they often think of this as like a ton of work. But to your point that dividends on this are huge, because you can help elevate your existing customers, you can help attract new prospects. And then there's a third audience, that's your employees. And so if you get your employees involved in the same platform, you can then continue to educate and empower those people. It everyone using the same resort

Joe
becomes your training tool

Frank
becomes the training tool. So this is these are the kinds of you know, ways when you start to think about again, elevating your customers not just like delivering what's on the invoice, the way you think about your customers changes.

Joe
Okay, so let's move on to anticipating their needs. We just talked about providing additional value now we're gonna anticipate their needs. What are some ideas here

Frank
so one is like a welcome slash onboarding video or a welcome slash onboarding experience. So one of the things that we can do better as companies as once someone signs on with us is to make sure they have a consistent, robust, informative rich experience when they when they come into the fold in so you can do at minimum you can develop like an onboarding video or a welcome video to tell them hey, here's what to expect. And you know, here's what happens is, here's what you go to for this. Here's who your account manager is and you know, Sally's gonna say hi to you, like having that as part of the setup is really critical to getting started on the right foot. You know, when you can establish the expectations up front in cement, the expectations and the rhythms early early on in the relationship, the odds that you'll keep that client for a long time go up. It's not the only thing. You have to do, but it gets the relationship started off on the right foot. And it starts answering their questions before they they ask them, have you?

Joe
Yeah, and it's really the first thing on this list that starts to talk about delight. You know, it's the difference between buying a set of headphones, and they come and clear hard palate plastic packaging that you got to coat open with scissors, or buying beats that come in a beautiful, you know, luxury box. Same for Apple, right? Same for Tiffany. I mean, they've kind of figured this the light element out that keeps people talking about their brand. Right? And we got a few of those in here. Right? There's there's quite a few in here that are simply delight, it doesn't change their life, it just makes the experience that much better. Yeah. Right. Next one, anticipating their needs, establish, maintain a knowledge base.

Frank
Yeah. So think about this. How many times do you get questions from your customers? about a particular thing that you answer over and over again, right, whether it's like the account reps, or the service people or the salespeople, whoever gets that question, once they're a customer? How many times do you answer those same questions over and over again. So start a knowledge base, where you can put the answers to these questions in one spot. And then that's also what By the way, what you would put in your welcome and your onboarding experience, you might have a welcome video, and then you might follow up and say, next thing I want you to know about? Is this knowledge base. Whenever you have a question about your you do. So that way you can get your question answered as quick as possible. Start Here With this knowledge base. And if you can't, here's how you can live chat us. And here's how you can call us like, you can really start to create a great experience. So they know upfront where they go to get their questions answered. But today, people expect self service. And so if you don't have those common questions just accessible to them to where they can find those answers themselves. You're kind of like not serving them in in the modern way.

Joe
Yeah, plus bonus, having documented the answers to common questions, you now make sure that you don't have different employees giving different answers, correct. Right. Making it up on the spot? Correct? Yeah. Okay, so staying Top of Mind is our next category, we only got one thing in here. But again, these are just starter ideas. So staying top of mind, what can we do?

Frank
Yeah, so a lot of times, what I hear from companies is one of their big complaints is, you know, our customers end up buying products from our competitors, because they just don't know we had that product. Or they just didn't know we did that thing. Yeah, like, that's a common thing that I've heard for, you know, a long time decades. And a big part of the problem is, is, you know, brands are not staying Top of Mind with their existing clients. So there's nothing wrong with here in this example, sending out a monthly newsletter, right, sending out a monthly email to your only that's only meant for your existing customer base, to let them know about updates to their software or product, whatever your updates are, if you're going to be holding events, if there are new offerings, the webinars that you're doing, like, let them know, you know what's going on, of course, all through the lens of what's relevant to them. So if you do have a new product announcement, you'll make sure you you have good copywriting to where you're, you're informing your base about why it's important to them to know about this new product, or product feature. And so as long as you give that in with through that lens, you keep them up to date about what's going on. And so you just, it's not the magic bullet. But it's one more thing to ensure that your customers don't end up buying something that you offer from one of your competitors, because they just didn't know.

Joe
Yeah, happens all the time. Okay, next category is providing world class support. So support is obviously a huge part of just the customer experience. Right? So what are we doing here?

Frank
Yeah, support. This is literally, you know, some some people call this entire column, you know, customer success, you know, we call it marketing, sales and service, but service success, essentially the same thing. So when we say support, we're not, we're specifically talking about like, I need help, right? Like, there's some issue, there's something wrong. So how do you support them? So one is you can provide a live chat on your website, right? So that way, when your customer comes back, it's like, I need to get a hold of these guys. I've got this problem, like, have a live chat. So that way, they can just instantly start chatting back and forth. Hey, I've got this who do I call?

Joe
I mean, assuming you can actually man it because how many times have you been in the past to a live check? You have to sorry, we're not here leaving a message,

Frank
you have to be able to staff it. Right. So if you don't only staff it a few hours a day, then just don't do it. But if you can get it staffed. And by the way, there are services that are outsourced that can can staff this 24 seven. Now, the whole point of a live chat isn't to get very technical questions answered. It's just to facilitate, right so you know, you can get services that will facilitate this and get people to the right spot. They don't have to be like technical gurus on your offering. So

Joe
depending on what you're selling, you can also use a lot of chat bot features that is pre programmed responses that then correct are really just designed to answer simple questions or hand them off to the right person who has the more complex answers for them?

Frank
Exactly. So live chat can be done in both ways, you can actually put a bot on the front end, and then get it routed to a live person based on how they answer those questions. So that's a cool combination of that tech and just kind of under the umbrella of live chat, there's also team email. So team email is, let's say, for example, when you're working, you're in a situation where you work with a client, they have an account manager, but maybe underneath the account manager, there's like three to four other people on that client's team doing different things. A team email is the concept that the client doesn't have to remember, you know, all four or five email addresses and have to figure out who they're supposed to email for what they can just email, you know, one email address. And then the tech helps you filter that to the right person and get it assigned and ensure that that client gets a timely response. But more importantly, an appropriate response. Right, instead of it coming to one person who then has to forward. And then you know, if they reply, the person who forwarded doesn't know if they replied, and like, Hey, did you get back to you? No, it just eliminates that inefficiency, and ensures that clients get the relevant replies as quick as possible. And then everyone in the team can see that that client was answered. Yep.

Joe
Okay, there, we got trouble tickets. And this obviously, is a little bit contingent on what type of a product or service you're selling.

Frank
Yeah. And it depends on the volume, right? So in a situation where you have, like I said, account managers, you're probably not going to, you might not have a ticketing system, right? There's a personal relationship there personal relationship, someone, but I would also suggest that, you know, these tickets could exist and be submitted by the account manager. So you could use a ticketing system to where when your client emails you personally to that team email, you can say, Okay, let's get a ticket spun up, and then your team could use the ticket system. So it still accomplishes the same thing. But maybe your client is interacting isn't interacting with the ticket system. Either way, a ticketing system is great to keep track of those client situations that need to be addressed, right, the the situations where they need support, and they need something taken care of. So whether you're using it as an internal tool that the customer doesn't see, or whether it's external, where it's kind of self service, it's a good idea to have this to ensure that people's requests and issues don't fall through the cracks. I mean, there's nothing worse, I'm dealing with this with the flooring company, by the way, and I won't out them here publicly, because not going to shame them. But I'm really unhappy because I have a situation with a flooring product they installed. They've been out once and said, Okay, we're going to call you and get it set up with a guy who told me this. No one ever called me. So then I had to call back going on. So they finally came out. They made some repairs. And I talked to him on the phone, because he called me while the repair people were there and say, is it satisfactory? I was like, no, it's still not like the original. There's a core problem that I've been saying that you're not addressing these like, he's like, well, I'll have I'll have our service manager call you, right, same guy. I'll have our service manager call you guess what? No call. Right. So if there was a ticketing system in place on their end, maybe this wouldn't happen, right? It's less susceptible to this guy just being, you know, like irresponsible. And I don't know if lazy is the right word, but like he's just not following through. Whereas if there was a ticketing system, and he had the habit of like, just logging that someone would have the view of this that Mr. Cowell's ticket is still open, why is it open? You know, he hasn't resolved it with with satisfaction. And someone would have that on their radar that my situation is still a problem. And here like now, I'm busy. And I've got to call them now again, saying, Hey, I was promised a call again. So ticketing systems can really help ensure you don't have those situations of slipping through the cracks.

Joe
Absolutely. Okay. And then we want to delight the team. That's the next category here. So what do we do delight? delight them?

Frank
Yeah. So there's a number of things you can do. It's like gifts. gifts are really great. And those have to be personal. Just swag. It's not swag. You can do swag. You absolutely can do swag. But let me ask you this. When's the last time you wore your Rackspace t shirt out in public? Okay, that's

Joe
actually a really, really specific example I wear my Bienstock t shirt that I got for free. beanstalk is like, you know, it's a it's a git repository. It's a geeky developer thing. I

Frank
wear it all the freakin time. You have to be a real big fan to actually wear the shirt. Like, I'll wear a HubSpot shirt because I'm a huge fan. But other than that, like if like Rackspace who I've done business with in the past or media temple if like they sent me a shirt, I'm not wearing that shirt. Right? I'm just not I'm not like that big of a fan. So yes, that that those things can be cool. There's a book by a guy named Jeff roiland, who he wrote a book called gift ology. And he's a fellow scribe author, by the way, so shout out to Jeff. He wrote a book called gift ology, and it really talks about the art of gifting with your clients. His suggestion is give them things they're actually going to use and things that are luxury, and things are high end that they were actually going to love. So he recommends things that show up in their home that get used in the home, because it's a regular reminder. You know, so for example, he's a huge fan of like high end cutlery, or, or travel bags, things that will actually get used. So someone will say, Wow, that's a cool knife setter. Wow, what a great travel bag. Where did you get that? He's like, if you like, give them like the cheap Canvas one that's got your logo on it. Like, like, I don't want to use that. Like, when he was a nice laptop bag or a nice briefcase, or I want to use a nice knife set, whatever your thing is, right? So his suggestion is you give nice gifts, because they will stick around and they will get talked about and actually get used. Right? Like when people send me those really dumb like, key chains that's like, Oh, it's cute. Like, I don't use Come on who's using a key chain? Like serious?

Joe
Anyway, our USB stick.

Frank
Yeah, I mean, do we have enough of those? Yeah, we have enough of those.

Joe
Alright, so gifts will delight them.

Frank
referrals, referrals. So this is reverse. Why don't you give your customers referrals? first before you ask them to give you referrals. So if you have a situation and this is like more of a b2b thing, but why not find referrals you can give to your client? Yeah. Like, give them, give them something, delight them, like, oh, wow, we set you up with this contact. And maybe it's a partnership, potential partnership or a potential client. So give them referrals.

Joe
And that's really tapping into you know, the reciprocity where they're going to want to then return the favor.

Frank
Exactly. Exactly.

Joe
Alright, so we can send them notes, thank you cards, notes,

Frank
no cards, thank you cards, like humanize this, right? Like actually take a moment, sit down and write a note card, like super excited about the launch in glad that you know, excited that you hit the target. And you Yeah, here's a note card. And oh, by the way, here's like, you know, bottle of champagne or something, like celebrate their wins with them, send the note cards, send them a thank you card, if they give you a referral, you know, the moment they sign on, you know, or if they renew, you know, thanks, that was, you know, really excited that you're on board, you complete a major project, thank you so much for being great to work with these these types of projects can can get hairy sometimes, but you were awesome. Like, really like show them you're thinking about,

Joe
by the way, some of this stuff is not innovative. And new, groundbreaking people been doing this for years. But I can't tell you how many companies that I've worked with that talk about doing this stuff,

Frank
and they don't do it.

Joe
And they don't do it. It's always kind of a wishlist item. But we are saying actually prioritize this stuff, right.

Frank
I'm what I exactly like, if you do this before you like obsess about where you're going to get your next m qL in the database, you're actually going to get more value by doing this stuff, right. And this is what people need, they need to break that addiction, the addiction of the new m QL. And you need to come over here to the other end of the spectrum, and do the things that turn people into fans,

Joe
like celebrating their wins,

Frank
celebrate their wins. Absolutely. So that's the next thing you could do to delight them is and I mentioned this a moment ago, if your client like, you know, achieves an accomplishment, they hit their revenue goal, they got a best of award, the project launched on time, whatever it is like celebrate their wins, send them the cake, send them the champagne, right, send them the balloon, send them a singing telegram, whatever, like, get excited about their success and celebrate that for them.

Joe
And by the way, these are a lot of good examples. And again, some of these are already been talked about in some businesses, I think one of the big takeaways here is you need someone to help operationalize this, you can't just say to your customer service representatives, you got to send them a note, it's it's probably never going to happen. You need to automate some sort of a reminder on a schedule based on when they sign based on what information you've collected on them in the CRM, whether it's their birthday, whether it's their anniversary, whether it's their first project launch date, you've got to find a way to track this data, and to remind everybody on the team to actually take action. And I think that's where a rev ops manager or rev ops consultant or somebody to actually oversee all this is really important.

Frank
Correct. And I think you hit it right on the head. Organizations talk about this stuff all the time. And they'll do it once and then they never do it again, because they haven't you said the the magical word, Devin operationalized. It rev ops is about operationalizing this stuff, right? It's about putting it into the system to ensure that it happens and happens and happens again. And it's not going to stop. And so glad I mean,

Joe
just writing an SOP and making it part of training. That's actually not even enough, because people read it, they do it a couple times, and they forget about it. Or if they don't forget about it, they don't actually follow the ESOP. They just do the parts they remember. So again, having it operationalized in a way where it's digitally put in front of them at the right times. You are a conduit,

Frank
you're preaching the requirement that that sops aren't enough. You have to operationalize you have to use the tech to ensure this stuff happens. Yeah, great reminder, which is why we say process platform, right platform's part of that, like you have to have the tech to enable this stuff to be consistent.

Joe
Right? Right. And also, getting all this stuff done is no small task. And it doesn't happen quickly. Like you can double down and make it happen quicker, but doesn't happen quickly. And if we're being honest, we don't even actually have all of this operationalized now we're chipping away at it chipping away by day. So this is this is a big job. This is somebody full time job to make sure this happens.

Frank
Yeah. And again, I my challenge to you is that if you I'm not saying you stop marketing and stop going and getting your mql, that's not what I'm saying. But if you shift your focus to fan creation, and you become obsessed with that, that will actually become a bigger growth engine for you. Then the new MQL. Yeah, especially in b2b, by the way, because we know that new inbound mqls are typically on the long burn track. Right, right. And I, the thing I've been preaching lately is the thing that you know, with your Cornerstone content and your lead magnets, that's more about awareness and positioning building, which is something you have to do. But it's more about awareness and positioning building. So you want to do that, but where you need to be deploying, the vast majority of your effort is, again, top down optimization, spend more time creating fans, then a little less going looking for new opportunities. And then the little less, you know, with the new mq, ELLs new contacts in the database, we've got, we've got it wrong in business, you know, especially with a lot of this tech, when we talk about inbound marketing, content marketing, the obsession is on the other end of the spectrum, the obsession is with the new contacts and the new mqls and the new visitors and the new awareness. Like it's, the obsession needs to be on the other end.

Joe
Yeah, you know, we got three more categories to get through here. And I think this next one is particularly interesting and needs particular explanation. It's asked for additional commitments, right? So increase, extend contracts, get them to buy more, I think that that needs some explanation. And because we're talking about making them fans, how does getting them to buy more from you make them a fan.

Frank
So two things one, it's, it's down at this point on the list, because you need to do those other things, right? Not every one of them. But you need to the categorical things, right? You need to anticipate their needs and provide additional value, you need to stay top of mind, you need to provide them with world class support, you need to delight them, you need to do those things. Before you know you can be effective and asking for additional commitments. So that's one note. The second note is to answer your question directly, how does that help create fans? We had this thing when I was in retail. And what we would train our salespeople on is, look when you sell them, the electronic equipment is asking you to sell the accessories and the cables. Yes is good for the business because it's high margin. But you have to understand that also makes a happier customer. And so people with like, how is selling them more going to make them happier? Because you're selling them the things that are going to ensure they get the best use of the product possible. So when we do similarly here, when we extend their contracts, we ask for additional commitments. We're helping cement their commitment. We're helping cement the fact that they said yes to us. And they're going to continue to say yes, again, and we're going to grow that relationship, right? The more they commit, the more likely they are to convince themselves that they're fans of your brand. They're fans of your product and you're offering, the more likely they are to tell others about you. Right? Because remember, when people tell others about you, it's not just because they want to be altruistic. It's part of the psychological process of justifying their decision. Right? Right. So when you when they increase their contract, spend, or they extend their contract with you, part of what they're going to go through is justifying like, yep, that was a good decision. Yep, these guys are great. That's why I did this,

Joe
you know, and in a weird way, I think it also creates a certain, a certain amount of intimacy, if we're going to use the marriage example, again, the ultimate commitment that my wife made to me was marrying me, right. But that's not really where it stopped. Because then, you know, fast forward a little ways, I would come in the door after work and drop my computer bag by the door. And after I did that 17 times, she actually asked me to make the commitment to not do that. Give me a reason why, right? Because she's got to clean it up, or she's got to hound me to clean it up. It's just, it's frustrating. And I think those little commitments that we asked each other to do in marriage, you know, they deepen and strengthen the relationship and they actually create a longer lasting bond.

Frank
Yeah, there's a psychological principle called commitment and consistency. And the psychological principle basically says that our brains will push us to act in accordance with past commitments, and behaviors and beliefs. So the more we do a thing, the more we're likely to do that thing in the future. Because once we build up an identity around that thing, or once we build out a build up a belief about a thing, the brain is going to work really freakin hard to ensure that that past belief or those past actions are not in vain. that weren't, we weren't wrong. We and this is why like, this is why like, religious and political identification is so powerful, because it's so tied to identity, our brain works really hard to reaffirm that. That's based on the commitment and consistency principle. And so when a client commits to you for another year, and then they increase their cementing the idea that they like you that they like doing business with you.

Joe
Yeah, by the way, commitment and consistency, as a psychological principle is not something that's relegated just to this column. That's actually something that we rely on in every single exam lifecycle stages, to get people to understand why they are committing to you know, the next step, the next lifecycle stage,

Frank
yeah, one begets the other, right? Like you increase the odds that the next stage is going to happen because of the psychological principle of commitment and consistency, right. So if you've never heard of that before, I would recommend going doing some googling on that, and maybe going down that rabbit hole a little bit. It's really powerful. It's a very, very powerful concept. It's the reason why this whole system is relationship driven. Because that's how relationships form, right? We talked about this all the time, you don't meet someone that you're attracted to have a conversation and then propose marriage, but there's not enough commitment and consistency to make that happen.

Joe
Well, correction is actually literally a television show right now, where you do that well.

Frank
television is very depraved. So let's not use that as like real life examples.

Joe
It's also cut the highest like three months divorce rate, I think,

Frank
of course, so so. But the point is, is like that the the love the commitment that you've made, and the actions you've taken at that point, will justify the next thing, which is maybe coffee, when you've got a couple of things that that would then justify a decision to go to dinner, right like, but that ramps up pretty quickly, by the way, like, you actually don't need a ton of previous commitment and belief statements before you go like really all in. This is also how cults work. By the way, what cults do, is they get you in with a little thing like, Hey, how about this free personality test? You're like, I'd like to know about me. And so you take a personality test, and then that might lead to, Hey, why don't you come to the seminar we're doing it's free. Come check it out. Before you know it, you only need a couple of steps before you can ask for something massive, right? That's just it's scary how that works. And cults play on that. By the way, the commitment and consistency principle doesn't it doesn't actually take long to get to big commitment. It doesn't at all. But you but you have to go through a couple of steps before you get to the big commitment.

Joe
Yep. Okay, so the next category is entice referrals. So we did talk about this early on, right, this is one of the KPIs or metrics potentially, that you would want to so enticing referrals? What are you doing here?

Frank
Yeah, so you've done all this, like you, these last two are about now extracting value out of them, right, but we're not suggesting you extract the value until you've given them value first. And so if we've extended their contracts and, and increased their contracts and got more value there, the other way we're going to get value is by getting referrals from them, get them to refer you to more business. And that's how you're going to extract more value. Again, if you do all of this, right, this becomes your growth, this becomes a growth engine as much as anything else you're doing in marketing and sales, because you're extending contracts, you're increasing contracts, and you're getting referrals for more business.

Joe
Yeah, by the way, the other day, Krys, our Rockstar sales guru here, reminding me that a referral is not just them, saying, Hey, I told a friend about you, or referral is really an introduction to someone who can get them to a sales conversation on our side, right? Yep, it's an actual email introduction, or let's go to coffee together or something like that. That's a real referral.

Frank
Yeah. So one of one of the ways to do this is to do one to one requests. And so again, operationalizing it to where you're measuring how many requests were made by your team in a given month, and tracking that make one to one request. So your account managers as they're working with clients, you know, at once they reach a certain stage, and they've proven value to ask for referrals. Hey, you know, it would really mean a lot to me, if you could, is there anybody you know, that's like you that, you know, would be interested in working with us you think or has the problem that you had, and literally just asking one to one. And then the other way you can do that is through referral campaigns, where you can do more of like a mass request through email and set up a program and you can even have fun with it, you can incentivize it again, depends on the nature of your business. And it depends on the nature of your client base. But you can do that through campaigns where you can put it, put it out and kind of more of like a mass request to your client base.

Joe
Right. Then lastly, we have here optimizing performance. Okay, so

Frank
yeah, all the other things were about how you like, drive, the like, all the things we've talked about, or that kinds of engagement you would do to help create the fan once you've done those things. Now that you're looking to optimize the performance at this level, what you want to do is you want to get the feedback and see how you're doing right so you can make changes that are necessary, but the only way you're going to do that is if you talk to clients one on one. So if you have regularly scheduled conversations with your clients, I'm not talking about just the account managers I'm talking about someone above the account managers I'm talking about maybe like the head of service or if you're the head of the company and you like have a certain amount of clients you talk to on a regular basis but someone at the leadership level, the executive level needs to be talking to clients one on one every so often in slating them in on a regular basis to see how things are going get the candid feedback, get the raw feedback, like you You being head of operations right Like you talking to clients and sliding them in on a schedule. So you hear, right what's what's being said, not just what, you know, our strategist tell you,

Joe
right now you'll hear things that they don't actually want to share with correct with their main point of contact, right?

Frank
So there's there's talking to them one to one, then you also want to survey them. So send out some sort of survey every now how are we doing, what he loved most about us what's working well for you what's not working well, so surveying them. And then you could also be getting the third thing here is you could also be getting a net promoter score. And so if you're not familiar with Net Promoter Score, you basically asked the question, how likely are you to refer us to a friend or colleague? That's basically the Net Promoter Score question, how likely are you to refer us? And the it's on a scale of one to 10? And so people who answer nine and 10 are considered your promoters, people who answer seven and eight are considered neutral. And people who answer one through six are considered detractors. And so then there's a formula you do, you take your percentage of nines and 10s. And you just subtract your percentage of sexism billows, and you get some sort of score. By the way, the best brands in the world, the big brands in the world, like if they get in the 60s, that's like, considered like, really high. Now, if you're a professional service business, you probably have an opportunity to score higher because you're not dealing with the massive volume of like a Best Buy or an apple or something like that, right. But that's the general Net Promoter Score. idea is that you're measuring that over time. Now, I will say, you need a pretty decent volume of customers. For this to be valuable. If you have, like, you know, eight clients that you serve on a regular basis, Net Promoter Score may not be the best, because one, one negative review, like swings pretty heavily. So you know, you may want to take that with a grain of salt, or maybe set the bar lower on that number. Or you can simply ask an overall satisfaction question and just measure that on the average number. But the net promoter score is a good thing to track and, and show what the trend is, you know, especially if you've got a base of say, you know, 50 to 100 clients or more, you can start to get something meaningful there.

Joe
Yeah, you know, it's not on the list, but I think is really important, just to mention here is that one of the mind, like shifts that we have to make as service people is that we are also revenue generating employees, right? I think so often the people who are delivering the service or delivering the product, or whatever it is, think of them as you know, it's the end game in terms of what the person bought. But really, that's that's the beginning of a new sales conversation. And if they're not thinking of themselves as a sales support in some way, you're actually missing out on a huge opportunity.

Frank
That's a great point. And I think that's one thing that we try to, we're currently instilling within our team, which is there's two lenses to that the way I see it, operations employees, people that produce the work their revenue producing people. And the reason that is, is because the accounting principle of accrual, meaning the money comes in, but you don't earn the revenue until you actually produce it. So getting employees to understand that their revenue producers, so how much revenue did they produce as a result of their work and having them understand that is a really important lens? And then exactly what you talked about is, you know, you have an opportunity to increase that revenue because of your engagement interaction with your client. And I think that that's a really important lens that people and conversation people have to start bringing to all the folks in the operations team and getting them to understand and exposing what is the revenue you produced you personally produced in this month, sales sold contracts, but they didn't produce the revenue. That's an important distinction, sales, sales contracts, they make deals happen. operations, people produce the revenue. Because remember, again, in a cruel situation, the money sits in the corner of the room until the operations team does the work. And then the money moves into earned revenue. So your operations, the plays are producing the revenue, they're making that transition happen. And so educating them and making sure they're aware of that principle is really important.

Joe
Yeah, so like we said, at the beginning, there was a lot to cover here under fans. Some of the other lifecycle stages that we're going to talk about in future episodes don't have quite as much meat to them. But I think this was a really good place to start to, to kind of uncover what it takes to actually convert people. Each each of these lifecycle stages is not as simple as just toggling a select box in a CRM and it's not as simple as just passing them off to the next person down the line. There's actually a lot that should be operationalized at each of these levels, to make sure this happens.

Frank
Yeah, great point. You know, like, as an example, we talked about like going through the sales process to create customers, like you want to have a really dialed consistent sales process, you don't need to change up your decks a whole lot, you shouldn't be changing your process, the more consistent you can be the better. It's also helps with filtering, which we'll talk about, you know, when we get to that. And we've also talked about in previous episodes, like the filtering is really critical. But once you have them as a customer, the things you do to create great fans, like you said, there's a lot of different things. And there are many more than what we cover today. And it becomes a little bit more fluid at that level, because it's not so like, playbook it out. And this is what always works.

Joe
Yeah. Well, that was a lot. I hope you stuck with us through it. I imagine you did, because I think it was a lot of really good information was good, right? Yeah, if we can say so. I mean, it was good. We're like, audience have to hear it was the best it was. It's true. There you go. You just spoke that into existence.

Frank
Hey, guys, I mentioned earlier to you. If you want a copy of this implementation matrix, I it's in draft right. Like I'm literally going to give you a draft version. I'm not 100% sure if we're going to give this out publicly at some point. I think this might become part of Academy that we're doing and some of the other things we're doing. But if you're listening you're a fan of this show. Email me I'll give you a copy you email me personally frank@digitopia.agency and just you know, ask or say, hey, Frank, I want that revenue operations digital utopia implementation matrix, I want that thing. Just email me, frank@digitopia.agency. And by the way, if you'd like to dive into the methodology we've been talking about further, go to building your digital utopia comm buildingyourdigitalutopia.com. You can learn more about the methodology. You can, there's a link to buy the book, there's a link to download, download the blueprint, links to other podcast episodes to go check it out, dive into this topic and help create a culture of revenue within your organization today. I'm bring Cowell, you're Joseph Freeman, thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time.